Jacob Prasch

 

It was suggested to me that I view a YouTube clip by Jacob Prasch regarding what happens after death. I found it rather a mixture, but it raises some relevant points, so I include my comments on it here. The numbers after the quotes are of course, the minutes and seconds into the talk that the quote begins. In his talk:

 

"Jesus told the good thief, 'This hour you will be with me in paradise.' Paul says we go to be with the Lord, in the conscious presence of the Lord."

00:50

 

That is confirmation of my point that at death we go to be with the Lord; so we don’t flip off in time travel to the day of resurrection.

 

However, in saying that after death we no longer experience time, he says you can dream of past, present and future events, and they're all the same when you dream, and since death is spoken of as sleep in the Bible, it's the same thing when we die.

 

"So when we enter eternity, past, present and future are all the same."

1:35

 

But those events are not happening when you dream - they are just thoughts and memories, so you can't possibly use that as evidence regarding actual events as they take place one after another in real life and claim they all happen at the same time.

 

He quotes Jesus being slain from before the foundation of the world and then says,

 

"John sees future events, he sees past events and he sees what was to him current events all happening simultaneously."

1:53

 

If John was seeing future events, then everything in the book of Revelation is a description of the things he saw taking place on the earth and therefore is intended to be understood literally. Very few Christians would agree with that, because there certainly is not going to be a seven-headed beast with ten horns walking around the earth, for example. So John had not been transported forward in time to see future events, but these were visions God gave to him while he was in heaven, in the same way that He gave Daniel visions of future events, and while from the context some is certainly intended to be understood literally, equally some is symbolic.

 

He tries to make a distinction between the passage of time and the passage of events, but this is splitting hairs. Regarding the Greek language, he says,

 

"Chronos and kairos. Chronos is where we get the word chronology - an order of events. kairos is like a clock, a watch.  In eternity, eternity is not a clock that keeps going. It's no clock at all… There is no kairos in eternity. But there is chronos; there is an order of events."

2:08

 

However, Strong’s Greek dictionary defines those two words thus:

 

Chronos; G5550; khron'-os Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while. Total KJV occurrences: 53

 

The first time it appears is:

 

Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared.

Matthew 2:7

 

Kairos; G2540; kahee-ros' Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550. Total KJV occurrences: 86

 

The first time this appears is:

 

And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Matthew 8:29

 

In both examples I have given, they are typical of the use of the words in the New Testament. So it appears to me his definition is not entirely accurate. An order of events means one event has taken place after another, so they cannot have happened at the same moment. God is certainly outside of time because:

 

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:8

 

One day is as a thousand years and vice versa with Him; but we are not God and His power and ability is not ours.

 

Of course, this is the problem we have, because it is impossible for those who have only experienced time in a physical sphere to understand fully a totally different sphere where an eternal Being has always existed without a beginning. So my thoughts on time in this page are just as likely to be wrong as anyone else’s because immortality is outside of the understanding of a mortal man.

 

Furthermore, in the Bible, time is (or events are) shown to be passing at the same rate in heaven as on earth. What is time? It is simply a succession of events - one thing happens, then another thing happens afterwards. So if there is an order of events in heaven, as the speaker said is the case, then whether you call it ‘time’ or something else it is still the case that if ‘a’ happened, then ‘b’ then ‘c’ then ‘d’, the point at which ‘a’ happened is further away from ‘d’ than ‘c’ is! Also, when ‘c’ is happening, this is after ‘a’ and ‘b’ and before ‘d’; therefore there is past, present and future, which is a definition of time. To prove this we see different things happening in heaven when things happen on earth, and these examples are those that spring to mind:

 

Satan came to tempt Adam and Eve after they were created (Genesis 3:1-5). It is generally accepted that the serpent was inhabited by Satan because of the prophecy:

 

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

Genesis 3:15

 

In Genesis 6:1–4, when the sons of God saw the beauty of human women they took human form to marry them. Job 1:6; 2:1 shows that the sons of God are spirit beings – see later.

 

…that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

Genesis 6:2

 

During Job's lifetime when the sons of God came before Him, He pointed out his righteousness to Satan in Job 1:6–12. Then later, God showed them Job's continued righteousness in spite of what Satan had done, seen in Job 2:1–7.

 

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" …  Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD... Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause."

Job 1:8; 2:1, 3

 

The evil of Ahab brings about the following event in heaven:

 

Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.'

2 Chronicles 18:18–21

 

During the whole of the time in the earth's history that children have existed, the following has been taking place in heaven:

 

Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:10

 

When Jesus went to fast in the wilderness, Satan came to tempt Him in Matthew 4:3–11

 

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Matthew 4:1

 

The church reveals to the spirit beings in heaven God's wisdom:

 

to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places

Ephesians 3:10

 

I know of no scripture that says time does not exist in heaven! It is true the old hymn (which I have sung and played many times) says…

 

When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,

And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;

When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,

And the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there.

 

…but where does it say “time shall be no more” in the Bible? Certainly eternity continues forever, but according to the laws of physics, for matter to be able to exist, time must also exist; or to put it another way, just as three dimensions are an integral part of matter, so is time, without which it could not be there. Everything must have a past, present and future in order for it to exist: if you go back to before something began it has no more past and therefore doesn’t exist, while if you go forward to where it has ceased to exist it has no more future. We are going to have physical bodies for eternity - bodies that never grow old or experience, pain, sickness and death. Therefore we are going to be in time: time that lasts forever.

 

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Rev 21:4

 

Of course, it could be argued that heaven is not a physical place, so the laws of physics in the physical realm do not apply. However, there are physical objects in heaven! Enoch and Elijah both went up into heaven in their physical bodies without dying.

 

And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

Genesis 5:24

 

Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Kings 2:11

 

Jesus ascended into heaven with a physical body.

 

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Luke 24:39

 

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight… who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." …and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

Acts 1:9, 11; 7:56

 

Where are they? They can’t just be floating around somewhere in space, so there must be some kind of physical place in the universe that is the location of the spiritual realm of heaven. Is it a planet?

 

The new Jerusalem that comes to the earth is a physical place and it comes out of heaven.

 

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:2

 

What does all this mean? In my view it can only be that when God created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1, some part of the physical realm ‘up there’ became linked with the spiritual realm. Many people believe Ezekiel 28:11–17 refers to Satan’s pre-fall experience, but this would mean “Eden, the garden of God” would have been in heaven.

 

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.

Ezekiel 28:13

 

Therefore surely it is the case that just as the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven at the end of Revelation, so the garden of Eden came down from heaven and was ‘planted’ by God at the start of Genesis?

 

The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.

Genesis 2:8

 

After the fall of Adam and Eve, initially entry was prevented by the cherubim with a sword but presumably at some point – perhaps just before the flood – it was moved to its present position:

 

So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Genesis 3:24

 

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

Revelation 2:7.

 

"The scriptures talk about sleep, not death."

2:47

 

It is a fact the Bible does not refer to death as the cessation of existence - it is the transfer of existence from one sphere to another. So Paul says we are dead in trespasses while our human life continues on earth, but when we are born again we become alive to God and enter heavenly places.

 

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins… even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Ephesians 2:1, 5

 

Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:11

 

…and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 2:6

 

Adam and Eve died the moment they sinned - not physically (that came later), but at that moment they were cut off from the realm in which they had been and became dead in sin, in the way Paul describes.

 

"When you go to sleep you wake up again. That's the resurrection. However, when you go to sleep your consciousness enters a different sphere. When you die… you will be in the conscious presence of Jesus. You will be with the Lord. Remember also when Stephen was martyred, he saw the Lord coming for him, to take him… Soul sleep is not a Biblical doctrine. It is completely unbiblical. It is the body that sleeps in the earth. No, we are not conscious of events taking place in time and space, as such, but we are certainly conscious of events taking place in eternity… Remember that heaven that exists now, it's not the heaven of all eternity. There will be a new heaven and a new earth… So don't confuse the heaven we go to now when we die with the heaven that we'll be with the Lord forever after the millennial reign of Christ. There's two different heavens."

3:00 (Emphasis mine)

 

So, according to that description, just as our minds dream while we sleep, then so our souls will be conscious while our bodies sleep in death. He says that when we die we go to be with the Lord in heaven, so clearly he does not accept the idea this page is written to refute - that when we die we do not go to heaven. He also says it is a different heaven from the one we'll be in after the millennial reign of Christ, so it is obviously the present heaven that exists at the present time to which he is referring.

 

If the theory is that when a person dies they are out of time and instantly transported to the day of resurrection, then it would have been impossible for Moses and Elijah to meet with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, because they did not exist at that time. So did God 'stop them off' at that moment in order to do this? As I mentioned at the start, the kind of time travel in this concept is more like the science fiction one would read in H G Wells than anything found in the Bible! Furthermore, they could only have talked to Him about His experience to come (Luke 9:28–36) if they had come from God's presence in heaven.

 

And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Luke 9:30-32

 

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